Category: Jack Johnson

What Deontay Wilder Learned From Joe Louis, And How I Predicted His Defeat

2/27/2020

I wrote a blog last December about how people were getting too high on Deontay Wilder. The former heavyweight champion was boasting about being the hardest puncher in heavyweight history. Fans took this and ran with it, hypothesizing that Wilder was on his way to being the best fighter of all time. Some even felt strongly that he'd knock out Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson. WTF?!?! With Wilder's recent loss to Tyson Fury, now many people are finally seeing that I was right in my observations of Wilder not being half as good as portrayed.

I knew this loss to Tyson Fury was coming and spoke about it numerous times. There are two main reasons why I predicted Fury would win this rematch.

"I Am The Hardest Hitter Puncher In Boxing History, Period."

Wilder made that statement in November 2019.

Now, I can almost understand why Wilder felt this way. His knockout record speaks for itself. Aside from Fury, Wilder has knocked out everyone he fought. He fell in love with his power. This is nothing new. I’ve seen this happen to other heavyweights like David Tua and George Foreman, for example. They got so used to knocking everyone out that they neglected other vital parts of boxing skill. For Foreman, he sacrificed his stamina, which Muhammad Ali famously exploited in Zaire. David Tua gained a lot of weight and became a one-trick pony with his left hook. When he finally got a heavyweight title shot in 2000 against Lennox Lewis, Tua weighed 245 pounds and his only strategy was to blast out Lewis with a left hook. He had no plan B, and was embarrassed for 12 rounds.

Wilder reminds me of Earnie Shavers in the sense that most of their knockouts occurred with one thunderous punch. On the rare occasions when an opponent would get up, neither man knew how to finish the guy off because they were accustomed to guys staying down. They never learned to become good finishers. This is why Shavers failed to stop Larry Holmes when he had him hurt, and Wilder failed to finish off Fury the two times he dropped him in their first fight.

Wilder and many boxing fans fell deeply in love with his punching power and knockout records. Wilder is an amazing puncher, but what I realized before everyone else is that Wilder is all punch and little else. His entire strategy is a jab and right hand. But more on that in a minute.

Secondly, the heavyweight division is poor aside from "the big three." (Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury and Wilder). The guys Wilder routinely knocked out were not great. There is no Oliver McCall or George Chuvalo around these days to test Wilder’s power.

You may think I'm being hard on Wilder, but I'm not. There is some credit to give. He isn't just a slugger, but a smart slugger, and here's why.

Wilder evidently studied some of the most dangerous punchers of the past. Joe Louis often unleashed devastating strings of punches together to destroy his victims. One favorite combination of his was to land a jab and then score with a right cross for the knockout. Wilder destroyed many guys this way. In fact, he used this combination of punches to floor Fury in their last fight, only he added a left hook to the chin after the right hand smash.

George Foreman knocked out Michael Moorer in 1994 with this same maneuver, as did Rocky Marciano when he struck out Jersey Joe Walcott to win the title in 1952. Observe.

The First Fight Said It All

Lastly, all people had to do was watch the first fight between Wilder and Fury. Fury outpointed Wilder most of the fight, and the only reason it was a draw was because of Wilder’s two knockdowns. That’s what made the fight so close. If not for the knockdowns, Fury would have won a comfortable decision.

And, in the words of heavyweight legend Max Schmeling, “I seed something.” During the last round of their first fight, Wilder dropped Fury with the combination of punches I spoke of above. Fury laid there dead. It looked to be over. Tyson Fury appeared to be another Bronze Bomber knockout victim. And, to the surprise of everyone, Fury suddenly rose from the canvas like the Undertaker and continued to fight.

Wilder failed to come across as a finisher, but that was not the only thing I noticed. Fury began to press him and back him up. Wilder didn’t quite know what to do, as he’s unaccustomed to fighting backwards. It took Fury 12 rounds and getting knocked down twice to realize that Wilder cannot fight backward and is uncomfortable with pressure. But the fight was over just as he started to exploit this. In the rematch he picked up right where he left off, and we saw what happened. Wilder, so used to being a knockout king, was clueless and hurt bad.

Hey, I am a fan of Wilder like everyone else. He was the first American Heavyweight Champion in 8 years or so. He can punch like hell. He has spectacular ring entrances. He’s a cocky but overall good guy and exciting fighter to watch. That right hand can drop you at any moment. He’s the most exciting heavyweight champion since the emergence of a young Iron Mike Tyson in 1985.

This is the time for Wilder to relax and enjoy his family, then return to the gym and freshen up on defense and finishing techniques. He showed true heart in refusing to quit, and I feel like he'll come back and eventually win one of the titles again. People used to doubt me when I'd tell them that he's not the unstoppable juggernaut force he was believed to be. I told people all the time that he could punch, but he couldn't fight. Ya'll didn't believe me. This is why it's wise to sit back and observe these guys early in their careers because more often than not, they let you down if you hype them.

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What If? David Tua Versus Primo Carnera

12/20/2019

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Imagine the year is 1933 and you're a top-ranked heavyweight contender stepping into the ring with the heavyweight champion. As the announcer pumps up the crowd during the introductions, the heavyweight champion glares at you from across the ring. He is a huge man, standing at a tall 6'6 and ½ inches and a massive 250 pounds. His name is Primo Carnera, (88-14, 71 Knockouts) and he just recently killed a man named Ernie Schaaf in a previous fight. You're about to face one of the strongest men alive on the planet, even capable of murder in the ring.

Let's fast forward to the year 2000. You're a boxer and the only man standing between you and a potential crack at the heavyweight championship is a strong, stocky powerhouse of a heavyweight named David Tua. (52-5-2, 43 Knockouts)

Tua may be on the small side standing at 5'10 and wearing a "Kid N' Play" haircut, but it doesn't matter. You've seen what his devastating left hook can do. He basically hits you with the entire island of Samoa. Tua has his Polynesian dancers drumming and dancing as he makes his way to the ring. As he climbs through the ropes, he shoots you the meanest look you've ever seen in your life. He has knocked out his last ten opponents in a devastating fashion and looks to add you to his list. You visibly shudder at the thought.

David Tua is arguably the greatest heavyweight never to win the title. But he was blessed with pure dynamite in his fists and had one of the best chins of all time. His left hook was pure blunt force trauma.

Primo Carnera was also a warrior gifted with almost supernatural physical strength. He is one of the biggest heavyweight champions to ever fight in the ring. What would happen if these two mammoths clashed in the center of the ring? Who controls the action? Who goes down? Who has the better legacy? Let's discuss.

Standing at 6'6 and 250 pounds, the massive Primo Carnera would hold a significant size advantage over "The Throwin' Samoan."

The Ambling Alp

Known as the Ambling Alp (What kind of name is that?!?!) Primo was the biggest heavyweight champion in history until the arrival of the 7-foot tall Nikolai Valuev. Carnera was incredibly strong, even working as a strongman and professional wrestler at one point.

Primo naturally had an intimating presence because of his size, but his scary reputation increased when he fatally knocked out Ernie Schaaf in February 1933. In the 13th round, a jab from the giant sent Schaaf sprawling to the canvas, and he never entirely woke up. He briefly awoke paralyzed in the hospital, but lapsed back into a coma and passed away 4 days later. Here is a clip of the knockout.

Primo knocked out Jack Sharkey to win the heavyweight championship in 1933. In the 6th round, a vicious uppercut literally knocked Sharkey off his feet and took his title. What's ironic is that Sharkey had easily boxed his way to a decision over Primo in their previous encounter, but he was obviously intimated by Primo's “murderous” reputation in their title fight. The man was terrified.

Primo was not heavyweight champion for long. He was absolutely destroyed by Max Baer a year later, hitting the canvas 11 times. The referee mercifully stopped the massacre in the 11th round.

The following year, Primo was again humiliated...this time by a young up and coming Joe Louis. The Brown Bomber unloaded his dynamite and put Carnera on the floor three times. By the 6th round, it was over. This fight was the first major milestone in Louis' career. When he showed that he could knock out the massive Primo Carnera, people knew he had a future. Here is what Louis had to say about fighting Primo, brilliantly walking us through the fight.

Louis said here that “Carnera was nothing.” It's interesting that Louis was able to literally pick up the giant and not vice versa. This was an easy fight for Louis, and he makes it sound as if Primo wasn't as talented as people thought, which I'll get to in a second.

There are many rumors that Primo was controlled by the mob. I don't know the details of this, but if true, Louis' statements ring even more true. Primo was huge, but couldn't fight. His size and mob connections are what led to his success. But that's all a matter of opinion.

The Tuaman

That 19-second demolition you just witnessed is the entire David Tua-John Ruiz fight. Many of Tua's early fights went like this, and he was referred to by many as "The Samoan Mike Tyson." Like his hero Mike Tyson, David Tua often ended fights early in an explosive fashion.

After turning pro in 1992, David gained a reputation for being one of boxing's most feared sluggers. His trainers were Lou Duva, Ronnie Shields and Kevin Barry. Duva was friends with Rocky Marciano and said during one of Tua's post-fight interviews that he gave his pupil a “Rocky Marciano style.” That may have been Duva's intent, but in my opinion David combined Tyson's aggressive approach with Joe Frazier's explosive left hook and stamina. Throw in a granite chin, and the result is David Tua.

David had a reputation for destroying guys within the first round, but he was also dangerous because he could go the distance no problem. There were many fights where David was behind on the scorecards but his bomb of a left hook bailed him out at the last second. Well, I guess you could compare him to Marciano in that regard. Marciano and Tua both had fights where their one-punch power saved the day at the last second.

Tua also had a chin of absolute granite. He was rarely hurt or staggered. Those huge tree trunk legs kept him sturdy.

Tua's first loss came to Ike Ibeabuchi in one of the best fights of all time. The battle was close. I had it 6-4-2 for Ike Ibeabuchi. Tua had issues adjusting to Ike's jab during the first four rounds, and Ike fought like hell to survive the last round, outpointing Tua. If not for his late start, Tua would have won.

Despite losing, this was Tua's best performance. He threw devastating combinations of hooks and uppercuts, he threw dozens of punches to the head and body almost consistently. Both guys wanted the win badly, and wound up having the highest number of punches thrown in a heavyweight fight.

After his undefeated streak was broken by Ibeabuchi, Tua seemingly lost his spirit. His weight began to balloon the next year in a fight with Hasim Rahman. Tua began to get bigger and bigger with each fight, and now fought a bit more lazy, often looking to end things with his thunderous left hook. The combinations, the uppercuts, and the thudding body blows were suddenly gone. It was now all about the left hook. This lack of strategy and motivation gradually ruined David's career.

David Tua narrowly missing a massive left hook on Lennox Lewis in 2000.

A Clash Of Styles

Primo fought as an upright, outside boxer. He used his long 85-inch reach and jab to fight from the distance.

Tua, on the other hand, was the exact opposite. He charged right at you and launched his thudding hooks and uppercuts in close range.

If we go by what Louis said, Primo had a “pretty decent jab” and pushed with his right. What we know is that when sluggers slipped under his guard and landed on Primo's chin, he went down in a heap.

Max Baer and Joe Louis are the hardest punchers Primo fought, and they both shattered him easily once they landed their first significant punch. Louis wisely concentrated on a body attack during the early rounds to "soften" Primo up. Once Primo was visibly getting fatigued and began to drop his guard to protect his ribs, that's when Louis got aggressive and went for the kill.

But Max Baer? He was a wild swinging madman. No finesse, no grace, no setup, just wild crazy random swings. If he could connect on Baer, I'm almost sure anyone could.

The difference between their victories against Primo is that Louis started setting Primo up as early as the first round, so it took less knockdowns to finish him later. Primo was broken down and ready to go by round 6. Baer hurt Primo earlier, but because he didn't "weaken" him the way Louis did, it took him a lot longer for Baer to finish the giant. (11 rounds).

Joe Louis struck Carnera so hard that blood squirted from his mouth and he went crashing to the floor.

Fighting big men wasn't necessarily a problem for Tua, but his kryptonite was a good jab, regardless of his opponent's size. Tua never learned how to sufficiently block or slip them. Hasim Rahman was far from a spectacular heavyweight, but because he had a decent jab, Tua had trouble adjusting to him in two fights.

Tua's defense was so bad that he made Hasim Rahman almost look as good as Joe Louis. Similarly, Chris Bryd had a field day humiliating Tua for 12 rounds. Bryd's awkward, pawing jab and slick mobility kept Tua befuddled and allowed Bryd to stay out of danger. Tua never learned how to sufficiently cut the ring either. If he had, then he would have mowed down Rahman and Bryd and pulverized them. But he had no idea how to close the gap if his opponent kept their jab in his face.

Tua might attack aggressively like a Frazier or Marciano, but he had no idea how to trap and corner guys the way they did.

During their heavyweight championship fight in November 2000, Lennox Lewis basically treated Tua like a sparring partner in one of his easiest title defenses.

But Primo Carnera was even bigger than Lennox Lewis, and we saw what happened when Tua fought Lewis. Does this mean Carnera would automatically beat Tua? Not necessarily.

Tua had knocked out guys as big as Lewis before, but none of them had Lewis' defense and skill. It was difficult getting around Lewis' reach, especially with him constantly shooting that jab.

Lewis also had his right hand prepared to surprise Tua with a straight right or uppercut. Once Tua felt the uppercut during the early rounds, he stopped attacking as much, knowing that this was the punch that awaited him if he got too close.

Tua also had a rib injury that was aggravated early in the fight when Lewis struck him with a body shot. Whether it was the uppercut or the body punch to the rib (or both) Tua mentally submitted and followed Lewis around for the remainder of the fight in a trance, hoping to smash him with an explosive left hook that never connected. He had no plan B.

During the last 2 seconds of the fight, David desperately threw a left hook so wide that he threw himself into the ring post.

Lewis and his trainer Emanuel Steward had Tua all figured out long before the fight. In addition to keeping Tua at bay with his telephone pole jab, Lewis held his right hand near his jaw, protecting it from Tua's only threatening punch – the left hook.

Despite being bigger than Lewis, Primo didn't jab nearly as much, nor was his right hand as vicious. I also don't think he'd employ any set strategy to keep Tua off of him. Because Primo lacked proper defense, it's more than possible that Tua would sneak through and blast his jaw the way Louis and Baer did.

Then again, Tua could be a lazy fighter at times. There were many fights he had against big guys with minimal talent similar to Carnera – David Izon, Oleg Maskaev, and Danell Nicholson immediately spring to mind. These guys were far from great fighters but they were having a fun time dismantling Tua until he suddenly landed that big left hook that put them to sleep.

Primo was so big that it was difficult for his opponents to get under his reach and attack him.

Legacy

Another reason why these two probably don't get the recognition they deserve is because their biggest victories in the ring are somewhat tainted. Primo's biggest win was over the much smaller and absolutely terrified Jack Sharkey.

As for David Tua, he knocked out four former heavyweight champions – Hasim Rahman, Michael Moorer, Oleg Maskaev, and John Ruiz. Ruiz was destroyed in 19 seconds and Moorer was blasted out in 30 seconds. But at the time Tua knocked out these men, none of them were the heavyweight champion.

Tua's biggest loss was to a peak Lennox Lewis, and his second biggest loss was to a young Chris Bryd.

Carnera's biggest losses were to Max Baer and Joe Louis. Primo's losses can be forgiven. Baer was one of the most dangerous punchers of all time. Joe Louis is arguably the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, so there isn't any shame in getting knocked out by those men.

Early on, Chris Byrd looked TERRIFIED of David Tua. But he soon realized he had nothing to worry about.

Lennox Lewis was too good for Tua, but Tua could have given himself a chance if he'd thrown more punches. In Lewis' next fight, Hasim Rahman destroyed him with one punch and took his championships. Tua is a much harder puncher than Rahman. The difference between the two is that Rahman actually threw punches in his title fight with Lewis, and Tua didn't.

Tua lost his fight against Bryd for similar reasons. He spent the whole fight looking to smash the elusive Bryd with his fierce left hook. Bryd has a great chin and could roll well with a punch if he saw it coming. Tua landed plenty of body punches throughout the fight, but by the time Bryd started to slow down because of it, it was round 11 and the fight was nearly over.

Lennox Lewis said it best. “It takes a whole arsenal to beat Lennox Lewis, not just a left hook and a haircut.” A cocky statement, but true.

If I had to rank Carnera and Tua, I'd rank Carnera ahead. For starters, Primo actually won the heavyweight title, something Tua never did. Even sadder for Tua is that there were four heavyweight titles during his era and he never picked up a single one, while many lesser fighters did.

Secondly, Primo's biggest losses were understandable. Tua, on the other hand, fell in love with his power and had no strategy against Lewis and Bryd aside from smashing them with a huge left hook to the chin.

Sugar Ray Robinson hanging out with Primo Carnera and Joe Louis.

Speed

As far as mobility goes, Primo moved a bit better than Jess Willard, but he was no gazelle. Still, Carnera wasn't necessarily slow, but you could see most of his punches coming. You could say maybe he was average at best.

Tua's hand speed wasn't on the Tyson or Ali level, but when he's in range that left hook could certainly catch you by surprise. Ask Darroll Wilson about that. He and Tua were scuffling up close, and Wilson all of a sudden went down. Tua had snuck a left hook to his chin. 1st round knockout.

People used to compare Tua's left hook to Joe Frazier's, but Joe's was clearly better. Joe could launch that punch from any angle, and you often couldn't see it coming.

Joe would “double” his hook, throwing one left hook to the body and then another one to the head. BANG! BANG! It was this combination that sent Muhammad Ali staggering into the ropes during round 11 of the fight of the century in 1971.

Sometimes Frazier threw the left hook after a jab in one motion, and sometimes he threw the left hook after a right hand set-up.

Tua was more predictable, often leaning a bit to his left just before launching the punch. Generally, you could see his hook coming if he were more than a foot and half away. But up close? You'd never see it coming.... and wake up in the locker room.

An older David Tua smashes an opponent with his left hook. Like George Foreman, Tua's power never faded.

The Fight

Here's what you've been waiting for. One guy (Tua) had awesome power, a concrete chin and no problem going the distance. The other (Carnera) was one of the biggest men to ever lace up the gloves and even killed a man in the ring. How does the fight go?

Well, it depends on Tua. The 1994-97 version of David Tua would attempt to smash Carnera immediately. It took Louis and Baer a few knockdowns to keep the giant down for good, but they succeeded. They also connected their blows rather easily.

If Louis said he had issues getting under Primo's guard during the first few rounds, so would Tua, who lacked Louis' defense and was even shorter. Louis broke Primo down with his jab and counters to the body, waiting for the perfect time to strike. That moment finally arrived in round 6.

The '90s version of Tua still had issues adjusting to jabs, but because Primo didn't throw that many and Tua kept attacking, he'd land that big left hook midway through the fight after struggling a few rounds to close the gap. A surprised and outgunned Carnera would be repeatedly put on the canvas.

If it's the overweight David Tua that lost to Lennox Lewis, Carnera may stay in the game a bit longer, but it'd be the same result – Carnera tries to survive, but the referee stops the fight after the big man takes one left hook too many.

David Tua Wins By Sensational Knockout in Round 5.

Agree? Disagree? Duke it out in the comments!

This would be the outcome of the fight. David Tua wins by 5th Round Knockout.

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What If? Sonny Liston versus Evander Holyfield

12/16/2019

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The most infamous photo of Sonny Liston (50-4, 39 KOs) is the one where he's laying flat on his back under a confident Muhammad Ali in 1965. Similarly, the most historic picture of Evander Holyfield (44-10-2, 29 KOs) is the photo of Mike Tyson making a bloody snack of his chocolate bunny ears.

As a result, history has unfairly overlooked how both men were among the best heavyweight champions of all time. First there was the burly, menacing Sonny Liston who wrote the book on how to terrify opponents before even getting into the ring. Years later, Evander Holyfield came along and clashed with many ring giants during his roller-coaster ride of a career. He used brilliant strategies and the Power of Jesus to win his battles.

There is a short list of heavyweights in history that would survive the power of Charles "Sonny" Liston. But is Evander Holyfield on that list? Is he the “real deal?” Let's discuss.

Sonny Liston's long 84-inch reach made it hard for opponents to avoid his punches.

The Big Bear

Sonny got by using pure power and intimidation. His scary glare terrified opponents, and was a major influence on George Foreman and Mike Tyson who came after him.

Interestingly, Sonny had the same strategy for most of his fights. If you watch many of his knockouts, it was his long bulldozing jab that often got guys in trouble first. Sonny had arguably the hardest jab in heavyweight history. After smashing you with his jab, Sonny would club you death with his left hook or uppercut. Or both. Either way, fight over.

Sonny might look like some crude monster, but he was technically smart. He realized the importance of the left jab. He used it to set up many of his spectacular finishes. That huge jab was capable of a knockout all by itself. Most observers feel that Larry Holmes had the best heavyweight jab. I don't disagree, but you could certainly argue that Sonny also had the best jab, just in a different way. Because of his long reach and Sonny's fearless lunging, it was a hard punch to avoid. And if he landed flush, it would be the beginning of the end.

It's amazing how short people's memories are. Sonny looked to be indestructible. Unbeatable. Invincible. Even while heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson was blatantly ducking Liston, everyone knew Sonny was the best heavyweight around.

But, while Mike Tyson retained his scary mystique after his shock loss to Buster Douglas, Sonny's fearsome reputation suffered after the Ali losses. People don't remember that Sonny won all but one of his fights following the Ali rivalry. It's a shame that he wasn't given a title shot against Joe Frazier during the late 1960's.

The Real Deal

As you can see above, Evander came to fight! He wasn't the hardest puncher, but he made up for it with mental toughness and buckets of heart.

Compared to Sonny Liston, Evander Holyfield was more well-round heavyweight. “The Real Deal” got by using his ring smarts and courage. Evander could fight by slugging, boxing or countering. Sometimes he did all of them within one fight. Evander was a hard fighter to train for because you could never predict how he would fight on any given night.

George Foreman is one of the few heavyweights to fight both Muhammad Ali and Evander Holyfield. According to Big George, there are a few similarities. One of them is that both recovered really fast when hurt. George said there were times when he had both men shook, but just that fast they were hitting him back.

George also said that their punching power was similar but Evander hurt more and this makes sense. Ali threw blows from a distance and danced away from you as he punched. Evander would come forward, dip for leverage and throw hooks and uppercuts while in close. Hooks and uppercuts are the knockout punches.

I'll go in detail on this later, but one of the reasons why Evander defeated Mike Tyson is simple... he outfought him. There was a brief moment in the first round of their 1996 fight when Evander surprised Tyson by landing a string of three consecutive hard left hooks to the body and head. BANG! BANG! BANG! Tyson stopped right in his tracks and sneered as if to say, “So this is what fighting this bastard is gonna be like?!”

Watch the interaction below...

Evander's strongest asset was probably his mental toughness. Like Ali, Frazier, Johnson and Marciano before him, Evander didn't believe he could lose. His faith in The Lord and courage held him together.

Rocky Marciano is often cited as the best-conditioned heavyweight champion of all time. He trained twice as hard as his opponents, which gave him an edge over them on fight night. By round 10, his opponents were often tired, but Marciano was only getting stronger.

The late trainer Lou Duva was great friends with Marciano, and when asked by Bert Sugar and ESPN's Brian Kenny if he knew anybody that trained as hard as Rocky, Lou quickly replied, “Holyfield. Evander worked and worked and worked and worked.” Duva trained Holyfield during his early years as a heavyweight.

Before we move on, let's take a look at Evander's cruiserweight career. In my opinion and the opinion of many other sports writers, Evander was the best cruiserweight of all time. His battles with Michael Dokes and Dwight Muhammad Qwai are exhausting, brilliant wars that you need to watch if you haven't seen them.

Evander cleaned out the entire cruiserweight division and became the undisputed crusierweight champion. Bored and undefeated, he moved up to the heavyweight ranks to challenge for the undisputed heavyweight championship, eventually winning it from Buster Douglas in 1990.

Sonny Liston crushing Floyd Patterson with an uppercut in 1962. It took less than a round for Sonny to win the title from Patterson.

Toughness

Evander would fight to the death if he had to. There was no quit in him, which is one of the reasons why he didn't retire until he was 51. The man loved to fight. Joe Frazier said in his autobiography that Evander was his favorite heavyweight of the modern era because he loved to break down much bigger men and had a natural love for fighting.

I can't say the same about Liston. He never came from behind to win a fight he was losing. He quit on his stool against Ali, and decided to lay there and get counted out in his rematch against The Greatest.

In his next to last fight, Sonny was suddenly knocked out by Leotis Martin. Because it's Liston, I question if it's a legit knockout or not. The punch definitely hurt him, but could he have got up? Maybe.

Then again, Liston was famously controlled by the mob. Maybe he was told to take dives against Ali and Martin? Whether he was legitimately knocked out by those guys or was instructed to lose by the mob, either way is bad for his legacy.

Evander initially went berserk when Tyson bit him, but watch his reaction once he regained his composure. He didn't resort to cheating or quitting. Despite the pain, he continued to fight Tyson during that wild third round.

How would Sonny Liston react if Mike Tyson bit him? Given his reactions to losing the first fight to Ali (quitting) and the rematch (again quitting) I think a terrified Sonny would want nothing more to do with Tyson.

"The Brown Bomber" Joe Louis holds the heavy bag for Sonny Liston.

Fighting Dirty

Both men had reputations for occasionally being dirty fighters, so it would not surprise me if anyone was blinded or headbutted in this fight.

Muhammad Ali was famously blinded during the 5th round against Liston in 1964. Now, being in the ring with Sonny is a scary enough thought, but to fight him without vision? Muhammad Ali was some man. He deserves all-time great status for this action alone.

You could argue that Ali being blinded was an innocent mistake. However, two previous fighters who were also fighting well against Sonny Liston (Zora Folley and Eddie Machen) both complained about something getting in their eyes. Unlike Ali, they couldn't turn things around and wound up losing.

Is it a coincidence that every guy who was on the verge of upsetting Liston suddenly got blinded during the fight? I seriously doubt it.

Evander had reputations for headbutting his opponents. In this writer's opinion, not all of them were on purpose.

If you closely watch “The Bite Fight” with Tyson, you'll see that Evander dips for leverage before unloading his punches. From his crouch, he'd spring upward and throw his blows with full force. Tyson fought like a bull, always charging forward. The result was a clashing of heads.

But this wasn't always the case. In their first fight in 1999, Holyfield deliberately charged into Lennox Lewis with his head. He also tackled him to the ground at one point.

On commentary, George Foreman called him out for these dirty tactics. Larry Merchant defended Holyfield's blatant cheating by saying, “He's a rough fighter because it's a rough game.”

Foreman's reply? “You'd never see Joe Louis resorting to all of this.”

Larry Merchant's comment was just another example of Holyfield unfairly getting away with these shenanigans because people liked him. I don't like that. Just because he is a Bible-toting man healed by the Power of Jesus doesn't mean we should ignore his wrongdoings.

Evander's 1997 rematch against Michael Moorer was the best performance of his career in my opinion.

Styles Make Fights

Stylistically, Evander should give a brawler like Liston some problems, though this doesn't automatically mean he'll win.

Evander fought like a modern Ezzard Charles – a clever counter-puncher who could go toe to toe when necessary. Evander often knocked guys down by striking when they were off balance as they missed a punch. He could pull this off with either hand.

This tactic is exactly how he won his first heavyweight championship from Buster Douglas. He used another counter-punch to floor Mike Tyson in their first battle. Tyson lunged in and was caught square with a left hook to the chin.

Sonny Liston often left himself open to counter attacks by lunging in with his fierce jab and left hook. The infamous "Phantom Punch" is a pure example of this, as Ali caught Sonny when he was off balance leaping in.

Holyfield should be favored on paper due to their distinctive styles, but Holyfield's biggest strength was also his biggest flaw - his heart. What happens if Sonny hits Evander after the bell? Evander would surely want payback and duke it out with the "big bear" in the next round and put himself in peril.

Holyfield has a granite chin. He withstood absolute bombs from Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Bert Cooper, Ray Mercer and others. With the exception of Bowe, none of these men knocked him out, and the Bowe loss had more to due with Holyfield being sick and weak due to Hepatitis A. You could argue that Evander was at his best against the sluggers.

But in a fierce shoot-out war, Liston would inevitably win. He was just too powerful.

Could Evander get around that heavy Sonny Liston jab? I would say yes. Holyfield didn't have the gazelle speed of Muhammad Ali, but his mobility was enough to keep him out of danger. Lennox Lewis had a long 84-inch reach and telephone pole jab just like Liston. In their rematch, Holyfield neutralized his jab by jabbing him in the body. Lewis didn't like that and opted to slug it out. I'm sure Liston would do the same, so the Liston jab wouldn't be a factor for long.

What about Sonny's left hook? During clinches, Holyfield leaned his head on Tyson's left shoulder to avoid his uppercut while at the same time smothering his left arm, restricting Tyson from utilizing his left hook. Holyfield also did this against Mercer, and no doubt he'd do it successfully against Liston too.

Legacies

Evander was a four-time heavyweight champion, but he never dominated the way a heavyweight champion is expected to. Coming after the five-year reign of Tyson dominance, Evander wasn't really taken serious as heavyweight champion. He was fighting for respect.

Later in his career, Evander won the WBA title in a fight with John Ruiz, becoming the first man to win the heavyweight championship four times.

Sonny Liston only held the heavyweight championship from 1962 to 1964, but everyone knows he should have been given a crack at the title much sooner. Despite Floyd Patterson clutching the belt and blatantly ducking Liston for five years, Sonny Liston was dominating the heavyweight scene.

If you're comparing legacies between Holyfield and Liston, Liston looks better as far as win-loss ratios go. He adjusted to his declining skills much better than Holyfield did, evidenced by him winning 15 out of 16 out his fights after being embarrassed by Muhammad Ali. Not only that, but he won 12 by knockout. Aging or not, he was still a legitimate threat to anyone that fought him. That power was still there.

Evander picked up more championship wins and fought much better competition than Liston overall. He got some huge wins, but fought way too long and picked up some unnecessary losses that hurt his record.

Evander twice beat Tyson, who was the monster of his era. Sonny, however, lost twice to Ali, who was the biggest name he shared the ring with. Sonny was more consistent overall, but Evander was an overachiever with much more championship success, both at heavyweight and crusierweight.

It's really apples and oranges to compare. It depends on how you evaluate greatness.

But if I had to rank them I'd rank Sonny above Evander but not by much. Head to head Sonny had more success and lost fights less often than Holyfield did. Liston only lost four times. Marty Marshall broke Liston's jaw, a fight that Sonny understandably lost. Sonny's last loss was to Leotis Martin as an old fighter. Sonny's only huge losses were to Ali. I can forgive that.

The Fight

Before I start, remember that Evander is famous for standing up to bullies. He thrived on standing up to bigger men and surprising them. Sonny is just that kind of bully. There would be no fear from Holyfield.

Ring The Bell!!!!!

Ultimately, it depends on which Evander we put in the ring with Liston. The 1990 version of Evander that swiftly defeated Buster Douglas would get blown away by a peak Sonny Liston. At 28 years old and 208 pounds, Evander was too small. He had great experience as a cruiserweight, but Dokes and Qwai are like puppies compared to Liston. Besides, if Evander was hurt so bad by Bert Cooper, I'm sure Sonny would have damn near killed him.

But what about the older Evander from 1997? To me, this was the best Holyfield. He had bulked up tremendously, gained much more experience by this time, and could find a way to beat almost anybody. His best performance as a heavyweight in my opinion was his 1997 WBA/IBF Heavyweight Championship fight with Michael Moorer.

Evander never looked better on that night. He never punched harder and maintained his punch accuracy. He floored Moorer 5 times, and outsmarted him consistently once he figured out Moorer's fight patterns.

Even more impressive is that this was a clean win. No headbutts, no football tackles, nothing illegal. On that night, Evander combined the ring smarts of Ali and the vicious attack of Jack Dempsey. Perfect.

Now this version of Evander would give Sonny a fight!!

Liston would make himself vulnerable by lunging with that long powerful left hook of his, leaving himself open to counter-punches, which is what Holyfield excelled at. It would be the phantom punch scenario all over again.

Sonny may temporarily hurt Evander a time or two, but Evander had the chin to recover fast and the wits to fight back or clinch to survive. Knowing that the left hook, jab and right uppercut were his most powerful blows, Evander would neutralize them using angles and clinches just as he did against Tyson.

I see Evander discouraging Liston throughout the fight with his mobility and combinations of hooks and uppercuts to the body and head. Evander also had much better stamina than Liston, hurting the Big Bear's chances if the fight went the distance. Sonny didn't necessarily fade during the later rounds, but he gradually became less effective the longer the fight went.

Eventually a frustrated Liston gets dropped by a perfectly timed counter-punch, and refuses to get up.

Evander Holyfield Wins By 9th Round TKO

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Andre Bishop Versus The Heavyweight Greats

7/31/2016

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On the boxing section of this website, I started a thread a few years ago asking if Fight Night Champion Protagonist Andre Bishop was a real boxer, would he be an all-time great? The discussion among fans is pretty divided, both stating good opinions on why he is or isn't. However, one way to determine if he was the real deal or not is to see how he does head to head with some of the greatest heavyweight champions.

Muhammad Ali

Muhammad Ali would embarrass Andre the way he did most of his opponents. Too fast, too pretty. Andre was a very capable boxer, but what does he bring to the table that could help him beat Muhammad Ali? For starters, I don't see how Andre could cope with Ali's speed. Granted, Andre would be too smart to wear himself out trying to blast Ali with lunging haymakers the way Sonny Liston did. I don't think Andre would leave himself open for too many counters. But he would lack offensive opportunities against Ali. No way does Andre knock Ali out, especially considering Ali had one of the best chins of all time and Andre was not the world's biggest slugger. Andre would not give up, but I see Ali winning a boring decision over Andre, who would patiently try to press and catch Ali but not land enough punches to make a dent or score points.

Winner: Muhammad Ali by unanimous decision

Rocky Marciano

Andre would show a lot of heart against Rocky Marciano, but that may be the exact thing that gets him killed. I would personally pick Andre to beat a lot of sluggers. But not Marciano. Unlike Isaac Frost, Marciano would not tire. No matter what strategy Andre attempts, Rocky is going to keep coming. To make another Isaac Frost comparison, Isaac got weaker and weaker as the fight progressed; Marciano had a habit of getting stronger. Due to Andre being a counter-puncher, it is possible that he takes advantage of Rocky's crude swings and hurts him with counters. Like Ezzard Charles, Andre could alternate between brawling and countering, which frustrated Rocky to a degree because he didn't know what to expect at any time. That would be Andre's best strategy.

But Andre never faced anyone quite like Rocky. Both guys had heart, but Rocky's was bigger. I don't see Rocky giving in and staying on the floor in a fight against Raymond Bishop the way Andre did. I dunno. This would be a fast-paced war of attrition that Andre would not be prepared for. I see Andre doing OK against Rocky in the early rounds, but once Rocky finds his rhythm, Andre would be unable to keep Rocky off of him and would take a beating, leading to a late round stoppage. I imagine this fight would be similar to Rocky's fights with Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles.

Winner: Rocky Marciano by TKO during the late rounds

Joe Louis

I don't see any way for Andre Bishop to beat Joe Louis. He may surprise him with a good right hand, but that wouldn't be enough. Joe was arguably the best finisher of all time, sometimes setting you up for the knockout as early as round 1 and you wouldn't know it. In each round he's working you over at his own subtle pace.

Joe would sometimes end things early if his opponent hurt him (Tony Galento, Max Baer) or if he viewed him as a threat - (Max Schmeling, John Henry Lewis, Buddy Baer, etc). Given Andre's reputation for winning fights with a broken hand, knocking out Isaac Frost, I believe Louis would see him as a threat and not waste time once the bell rings.

Once The Brown Bomber hurts Andre with his first significant punch, it would be the beginning of the end. That's when Louis would put his finishing blows together and put Andre to sleep. Andre can't out-slug Louis nor can he out-box him. Andre may get a good lick in here or there, but this fight only lasts as long as Joe wants it to.

Winner: Joe Louis by Knockout

Lennox Lewis

I think Andre is capable of beating Lennox Lewis, just as the old version of Holyfield nearly did in late '99. I'm not saying it would be an easy task, however. Andre would have to get past the long telephone pole jab of Lewis and be aware of that right hand or uppercut when he gets in range.

But I feel that Andre could be smart enough to pull off a victory here. Lewis had a habit of abandoning his jab when guys repeatedly hit him in the body. (See his battle with Ray Mercer and his rematch with Holyfield for references). If he employs a constant body attack early on, Andre would be able to manipulate Lennox into a close-range brawl, which works to Andre's advantage. It's possible that maybe he'd counter Lewis and sneak something past him to get a knockout, but most likely he'd win a close decision in a toe to toe war. If old Holyfield and Ray Mercer could nearly push Lewis to the brink by forcing him into a shoot-out, then I think Andre has a real chance here.

Winner: Andre Bishop by decision, but it could just as easily go the other way.

Joe Frazier

This would be basically the same as my prediction on a bout between Andre and Rocky Marciano. Joe Frazier would be swarming all over Andre. I doubt Andre would be able to fend off an attack from Smokin' Joe. Watch Joe Frazier at his peak during the years 1970-71. The way he cut the ring, combined with the fierce and relentless tenacity of his attack, makes him one of the best heavyweights ever. He fought at such a frantic pace that not many guys would survive.

Like Marciano, Frazier does not tire. So any hope of wearing Frazier down for a late stoppage is futile. Andre doesn't have the big punch of a George Foreman to stop Joe, and he's not built for a nose-to-nose 15 round slugfest with him either. Joe works him over with big hooks and body attacks, eventually stopping him with a thunderous left hook. Andre would be too battered and beaten to continue.

Winner : Joe Frazier by late TKO

Larry Holmes

I don't see Andre being able to cope with Larry's jab, stamina and toughness, both mental and physical. With big wins over men such as Shavers, Cooney, Norton, Witherspoon, etc, Larry has enough experience under his belt to make Andre look like an amateur. I just don't see Andre posing a threat to him unless he exposes Larry's weakness of dropping his left hand after the jab and cracking him with an overhand right. But if Larry could survive a near-fatal knockdown from Shavers (and keep in mind that it took THREE knockdowns from a peak Tyson to keep Larry down) then Andre doesn't have a puncher's chance of stopping Larry. Larry would give Andre a boxing lesson and Andre would not be able to keep up.

Winner: Larry Holmes by unanimous decision

Jack Johnson

Two counter-punchers. In this fight, Andre would be forced to fight as the aggressor. He can't sit back and try to counter Johnson. He'd have to lead, and it wouldn't go well for him. Jack (like Ali and Louis) has too much in his bag of tricks for Andre, who would be in far over his head in this fight.

But on the other foot, Andre has a puncher's chance against Johnson, who had a suspect chin. I think Johnson would slap Andre silly for the most part, but Andre has a puncher's chance and had a history of outsmarting some of this opponents. Would it work against Johnson? I'm not sure. Johnson might just be too tricky for Andre. But in a 12-15 round fight, Andre would find a way to set up the big punch he needs.

Winner: Andre Bishop by knockout

Evander Holyfield

Evander Holyfield is probably the best heavyweight to compare Andre to. Both guys had great strategies and ring intellect to make up for their lack of size, both were natural counter-punchers, and both achieved huge shock victories as underdogs. But Evander had more experience than Andre. Much more. And he beat much better competition than Andre, whose biggest victory was over Isaac Frost. The Evander Holyfield of '96-97 would find a way to beat Andre in a competitive fight while it lasts. The well-conditioned Andre Bishop who defeated Isaac Frost was a very patient fighter who has a legit chance against almost anyone, but the Evander Holyfield who demolished Mike Tyson and Michael Moorer in the late '90s was a more proven warrior with enough ring experience to get the win.

Winner: Evander Holyfield by TKO during the late rounds.

The Klitschkos

To make it short, the Klitschkos would beat Andre. They were a little too patient for Andre to find anything to play off of. While Isaac Frost was similar in size to the Klitschkos, he fought a predictable and stupid fight, trying to blast Andre out of the ring during the early rounds. The Klitschkos would bide their time and counter. With a lack of punches to counter and play off, Andre wouldn't be able to bring anything to the dance. He would be on the outside of their long jabs all night. Andre could attempt to work them over with body shots, a'la Isaac Frost, but the Klitschkos wear their trunks up so high that he might get disqualified for "hitting low." There's just too much against Andre in a battle with these guys. He loses by decision or maybe a knockout if the Klitschkos decide to later in the fight.

I realize that Wlad and Vitali are two different fighters and fans of theirs may be offended that I grouped them together. After all, Vitali is a more awkward fighter, but has the better chin and is more comfortable in a slugfest if the opportunity arises. Wlad, on the other hand, is more of the classic boxer-puncher type. He arguably hits harder than his brother, but doesn't take a punch as well and avoids aggressive encounters as much as possible. But to save time here, the Klitschkos would beat Andre the same way, which is why I put them together in this list.

Winners: The Klitschkos by Unanimous Decision or late TKO

George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Max Baer, Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson

Sorry to group these guys together, as they all had different styles. But I'm confident that Andre knocks them all out. Foreman and Liston were big, crude men who hit like trucks. But they could be outsmarted (as Muhammad Ali proved) and they faded during the later rounds. Ultimately, Andre facing them would be repeats of his battle with Isaac Frost.

Max Baer had better stamina than Liston and Foreman, but his crude haymakers would leave him open for counters from Andre.

Tyson and Dempsey were smaller than Baer, Liston and Foreman, but they were at their best during the early rounds. Andre was smart enough to avoid getting caught up during their early blitz and would take them apart when they slow down after round 4 or 5.

Winner: Andre Bishop by late knockout

I realize that Andre is a fictional video game character and these fights naturally will never happen, but the guy was quite tough. I have him going 7-8 against the top heavyweight champions of all time, which isn't terrible by any means. And I pick him to put on a good show against most of the men that would beat him. Also, here is the thread on my boxing site where we discuss Andre's legacy. If you're a Fight Night Champion fan, take a look and share your thoughts!

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What Deontay Wilder Learned From Joe Louis, And How I Predicted His Defeat

"I Am The Hardest Hitter Puncher In Boxing History, Period."

The First Fight Said It All

What If? David Tua Versus Primo Carnera

The Ambling Alp

The Tuaman

A Clash Of Styles

Legacy

Speed

The Fight

What If? Sonny Liston versus Evander Holyfield

The Big Bear

The Real Deal

Toughness

Fighting Dirty

Styles Make Fights

Legacies

The Fight

Andre Bishop Versus The Heavyweight Greats

Muhammad Ali

Rocky Marciano

Joe Louis

Lennox Lewis

Joe Frazier

Larry Holmes

Jack Johnson

Evander Holyfield

The Klitschkos

George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Max Baer, Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson

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Categories

Archives

What Deontay Wilder Learned From Joe Louis, And How I Predicted His Defeat

"I Am The Hardest Hitter Puncher In Boxing History, Period."

The First Fight Said It All

What If? David Tua Versus Primo Carnera

The Ambling Alp

The Tuaman

A Clash Of Styles

Legacy

​Speed​

The Fight

What If? Sonny Liston versus Evander Holyfield

​The Big Bear

The Real Deal

Toughness

​Fighting Dirty

​Styles Make Fights

Legacies​

The Fight

Andre Bishop Versus The Heavyweight Greats

Muhammad Ali

Rocky Marciano

Joe Louis

Lennox Lewis

Joe Frazier

Larry Holmes

Jack Johnson

Evander Holyfield

The Klitschkos

George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Max Baer, Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson

Author

Categories

Archives

Speed

The Big Bear

Fighting Dirty

Styles Make Fights

Legacies